LEADERSHIP LESSONS

Transcript

Lauren Freeman:
Welcome everyone, you are listening to the Talent Talks with Robert Walters podcast. Over the coming months we're going to be speaking with leaders across Robert Walters UK, along with industry guests discussing their career successes, advice and getting their quick take on trends in the market. My name is Lauren Freeman, I am a Senior Consultant within the Birmingham office and I manage Public Sector finance appointments across the Midlands region. Today our guest is Amrit Singh, Amrit thank you for taking the time out to do this with us today.

Amrit Singh:
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Lauren Freeman:
Amrit is the Finance and Commercial Director at nasen, a charitable membership organisation who exist to support and champion those working with and for children and young people with special educational needs and or disabilities, otherwise known as SEND, so that they can go on to achieve their full potential. In his role Amrit is accountable for finance, UK and international business development, operations, sales & marketing. Prior to joining nasen earlier this year Amrit spent eight years in financial services and nine years prior to that in retail. He's here today to share his journey with us and to provide some insight into the benefits and challenges of making the transition across industries, specifically around the move into the charitable and third sector.

So Amrit, what do you think if we start maybe with a little bit of your background, your career history. I guess if we take it right back to where your career started in a much more corporate vein then you are currently in now. After a number of years in retail before moving into financial services, followed by an SME fintech through to the current day at nasen. Amrit, could you tell us a little bit about that journey and what motivated some of the moves that you made?

Amrit Singh:
Absolutely. So it's interesting. I started straight out of university in the retail industry and actually that happened by accident. I was working on the shop floor of H.Samuels, as it was at the time, in The Bullring in Birmingham. When I finished University with my maths degree, I was trying to figure out where should I take my career, and finance seemed like the sensible road to take, and an opportunity came about to join Signets head office in their finance team. So I moved from the shop floor into the finance team for Signet in retail, Signet own H.Samuels and Ernest Jones, the High Street jewellers.

With Signet, I spent eight years in total, four years on the shop floor and four years in the finance team doing a number of finance roles, and whilst I was at Signet I developed my career plan and figured out what my retail career plan would look like and where I wanted to get to in the retail industry and the route I needed to take. Part of that plan was to diversify my experience, and when I talk about having a diversity, diversity of experience, I talk about having different strings to the bow of finance. So I wanted to cover various finance roles, and so I decided at one point, I needed to get commercial finance under my belt, and so I left Signet to join another company in the retail industry called Next, you will have heard of them, and spent a year with them.

After a year with Next I got to the point of my first career transition, which at the time was really difficult, it was a really tough decision, and it was riddled with risk at the time, but actually it was a twofold decision for moving and it was mainly driven by personal circumstance. For me, what's important, whenever we look at, or whenever I've looked at my career moves and industry transitions, it's been a combination of personal circumstance and career motivation. I don't think you can look at either of those in isolation, it needs to be a combination of the two. My personal circumstance, was I recently got married, I was working in Leicester living in Birmingham. My wife was working in Manchester so we were going in completely different directions and not seeing each other at all. We made a decision together, we would both look for work in Birmingham. That was my personal circumstance, I needed to find something local, and that's when the opportunity to join global investment bank, in Deutsche Bank came about and this was alien to me. Up until this point, I didn't even know what investment banks did, I knew they existed, but I didn't really understand how they how they operated, how they worked and then add on top of that, the opportunity to join Deutsche Bank was in operations not finance, and so there was this big thing for me at the time. Here's me with my career plan all mapped out, all rooted up. I knew what steps I needed to take to get to the Finance Director, CFO level in the retail industry, but all of a sudden, there's this new opportunity in investment banking where the glass ceiling is much, much higher, the opportunities are huge, it's truly global. Then also added to that, it's a different area in operations, rather than finance.

So at the time it felt like a huge risk and it was a really difficult decision, do I do this, or do I not do this, should I, shouldn't I. In the end, doing the pros and cons and looking at the risk vs reward, I actually came to the decision that the upside, was way bigger than the downside here because I could do it, I could take the risk. I could do it for a year, and if it didn't pay off, I could always make that move back to retail if I decided that was what I wanted to do. The additional thing when I moved across industry as well, was a sideways step, I didn't get that promotion I was looking for in the retail industry, if I was looking to move across there. But again, it was a risk worth taking, clearly I was with Deutsche for eight years in financial services, I was lucky enough to get a number of promotions. I worked in Birmingham, I spent a bit of time in Mumbai and I spent four years on the trading floor in London as well which was great, great experience and thoroughly enjoyed my time with Deutsche. I actually made the move back into finance with Deutsche as well, I spent two years in operations, back to my earlier point about having diversity of experience for me, having that time in operations was important, an important part of my career. It gave me an understanding of how a different part of an organisation works. If you think of finance, it can be pretty similar across industries. We have a similar sort of targets, similar timelines, you still have a month end, you've got forecasting, you've got budgeting, it’s quite consistent, no matter what industry you're in. But I wanted to learn operations, because it's a bit different, something that I wouldn't have ordinarily done in finance and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I would encourage people that if there's an opportunity to diversify your experience by doing a stint in a different department outside of finance, it's well worth it. You learn things that you wouldn't ordinarily be exposed to in finance.

After Deutsche, I moved, because I was working in London, and then we moved to Chester to take on a role with a Fintech SME, an organisation called Next Gear. I say we, this time because when we moved to London, it was just my wife and I, and when we move to Chester as we, my wife, young daughter and a dog, which was much, much harder to relocate. We spent a year in Chester, and for personal reasons & family reasons we found it very difficult to settle up there. It was a risk again to move, this time the risk didn't pay off as well as the previous risks, but that's okay, it's okay to fail when you take a risk, it doesn't always pay off and I think that's you go into it with your eyes open, it's okay. So we relocated back to the Midlands, and at that point I decided to take some time away from working to reflect on life, reflect on what's important and also reflect on my career to date. It's during those reflections that I came to the realisation that I really wanted my next career move to be in an industry or an area where I could make a fundamental difference to people and people's lives and help them.

Then the opportunity to join nasen came around, so thank you for the lovely introduction to nasen Lauren, nasen is fundamentally a charity that's out there to improve educational outcomes for all children, specifically those with special educational needs and disabilities. When you think about the education sector and children was with SEND. There's 1.3 million kids out there in the education sector to have some form of special educational need or disability, and 1.1 million of those do not have an education and health and care plan, so not supported in that sense. So the way you support those children is by developing education and educational practitioners and teachers and school leaders and providing them the training resources so that they can make education inclusive for all, So, nasen, it was there, it was an opportunity to really make a difference for children across, up and down the country as well as internationally. Having joined nasen and having been able to spend a bit more time getting to know the organisation and really live the values of the organisation, they tie in so closely with mine in my personal values and the organisation values are so closely linked. It makes me really comfortable and content to go to work every day in this sector, and actually the move from FS financial services into the charitable and third sector was much, much easier than when I'd made the first transition from retail to FS. I think that's down to the fact that again I went in with eyes open, knowing that there are differences, there is different language, different acronyms to learn and navigate and different ways of working, but knowing that's the case makes it a bit easier to navigate, once you've made that transition

Lauren Freeman:
So I guess in response to that Amrit, obviously, talking with numerous candidates across multiple sectors, not only the public sector within recruitment. There are various challenges in what you just said that would normally spring to mind when having these conversations with particular individuals. I think if we go specifically to your move from retail to financial services, we often get a lot of people come to us who maybe wouldn't consider financial services as a move because of how regulated, they are, how would you say that you dealt with that element and how you found that?

Amrit Singh:
Yeah, look, the industry is very different, financial services, absolutely is very heavily regulated. But fundamentally, especially in the finance area, as a trained finance professional, finance is pretty consistent across industries and also I want to just say that for finance, I’d talk about operations as well, whilst the product is very different, fundamentally it is still a product that you're trying to shift and a product that you're trying to sell and make some revenue off, whilst keeping your cost base low. So yes, there is this thought process that once you're in an industry, you should stay in that industry, but I'm of the belief that diversity of experience is really important, and this goes, not just for the individuals that are looking to cross industry, but also for the organisations themselves. I think organisations should be open to looking at individuals from different industries as those organisations were when they took me on, and I was fortunate enough to have that opportunity. Having that diverse experience across different industries enables you to see things in different ways, if you only look from one industry, and you're stuck in one industry, you tend to see things in the way that the industry sees them. So I think from an organisational perspective, it's important to be open to that diverse background of experience, but on an individual basis, I couldn't recommend a switch enough. For me, financial services was brilliant and the pace of which they operate is bonkers, it's so fast. I thought retail was fast pace, but financial services is immediate. I learnt so much during my time in that industry that I'm bringing into the charitable sector and trying to bring some best practice that financial services have enabled me to learn, and I don't think it just relates to financial services, retail to FS. I think any industry, there's an opportunity to, one learn some new skills, but then, secondly, for you to bring some of the skills that you've already learnt and impart that on to an organisation in a new industry.

Lauren Freeman:
Absolutely, and I think as well, from what you've said, it's quite clear that you've gained a wide range of exposure throughout making these moves. Do you think there's anything in particular that potentially you might not have touched upon if you hadn't have transitioned through to the different sectors, and tried your career in various different areas?

Amrit Singh:
So great question and like I said, I've been fortunate enough to be able to make those transitions and work across different sectors, and there's so many different things, in the retail sector, it's all about capital expenditure, CAPEX, and getting your stores refitted, and having a physical footprint to be able to sell things, which is quickly changing now to the digital side of things and being able to sell online. Whereas the FS industry is digital, the physical footprint is all around the offices that are being occupied rather than a Shopfront to sell from.

I think the biggest thing that I've learned from switching sectors is understanding, there are different ways to get the same outcome, and that is sometimes sector specific, specific sectors operate in different ways. For example, in the retail sector, there is a lot of focus on shop fronts and physical footprint, where you sell the product from, and so the lens that you need to look at is what's the value and return on investment that we make, what's the return that we're getting on the shop floor is it a worthwhile product and Is it worthwhile continuing that. Whereas in the financial services world there's less of a focus on the physical footprint, but there's much more focus on a balance sheet investment, so it's much more the stocks and the positions that are held on the balance sheet, how much return is being generated from that balance sheet, so whilst it's still a return on investment, it's a different type of investment and understanding that the principles of finance, particularly, and the principles of business, they fundamentally actthe same across industries, but in slightly different ways. For me, it really breaks down the barriers to be able to cross industry. Because what you may look at from the outside in terms of, for example, the financial services industry looks very different to the retail industry, when you break down those barriers, but fundamentally it's still a business that's trying to turn a profit, it makes it much easier to make that transition because the fundamental principles remain intact, regardless of the industry.

So if I look at the commercial sector and the corporate sector, it's mainly driven around turning a profit and looking at the EBITDA, whereas in a charitable sector, yes, it's important to turn a profit, which we call a surplus rather than a profit, because it's all about surpluses and deficits in the in the charity sector and the third sector. We tend to build reserves to a certain level, but once reserves are built to a level where they're comfortable to reinvest those reserves and make losses or deficits, and those deficits that we make are thought out, are deliberate investments back into the organization. For example, nasen right now is reinvesting  a vast chunk of its reserves back into the organisation where we're developing a new CRM and website for our members, we're changing the way in which our membership is offered. We've historically been a paid for membership organisation, we're now going to be a free membership organisation which is free membership for all. That takes investment, but charities aren’t flush with cash, we're not flush with capital budgets, we've not been making profits for a number of years. So you have to be very strategic in terms of when our investment cycle is going to run similar to a commercial enterprise, and when are we going to be looking at trying to build those reserves back up to a certain level. But ultimately in the charity sector, we're not here to turn a profit, we're here to make a difference, and that kind of brings me back to the values of the third sector and charity sector and why I'm here, which is fundamentally, we're here to make a difference and make education inclusive for all, and that really resonates nicely with me and helps me on a day to day basis when I come to work and I don't have to think about that, it's just there, and it's there every single day, whereas in the commercial and corporate world when you're looking at driving a P&L and drive profit every day, that why, why you come to work every day can sometimes get a bit cloudy and you kind of tend to lose focus on why am I here every day, right, it becomes much more, how do we maximise our sales and minimise our costs. Which, don't get me wrong is still a consideration in the charity sector, and it's really important to consider that, but it's not the main driver, the main driver is how do we make a difference, and how do we continue to improve education, but also we need to make sure that it’s not costing us more than it takes to for us to generate income on that.

So being able to bring that commercial education, that I've had in the corporate world and bringing that into the charity sector now and starting to look at more commercial modelling and looking at what is the right level for us to pitch certain products to cover our costs, first of all. But also to try and return a little bit of a surplus so that we can use that surplus to generate newer products, reinvest it back into the charitable activities that we have as an organization, or actually, as we are right now cover some of the investment cycle that we're putting in place right now to put us into the future.

Lauren Freeman:
I think you've given a really good overview there Amrit, of exactly how the transition happens when you move into the charitable sector, and obviously you've had a really positive experience in that particular area. On the wider market, whether that be from a candidate or client perspective looking to either join or hire from across sector. Particularly with that charitable or third sector, often there does seem to be some sort of stigma in charitable, or third organisations, maybe not being quite as commercial or maybe not as fast paced. How have you found that change of pace? but also what are you doing in particular at nasen to make sure that you do have that commercial edge that other businesses offer?

Amrit Singh:
Yeah, it's a great observation and I think it's a valid observation as well, and certainly something that I used to think of before I moved into this sector, which was around the pace being slower and not being as commercial for sure, and the pace is different. I don't think it's fair to say it's slower, I think the rate at which it ebbs and flows is different, and it flows to different needs, for example, nasen holds a number of large contracts, one of which being a department for education government contract and the needs around that contract are very different, very specific.There is regular reporting done on a monthly basis, we invoice on a regular basis, so there is actual tight rigor around that process and it is quite fast paced because we have to be able to ebb and flow with the requirements of that contract. One day, there may be a key requirement to deliver against an output and a need, but then very quickly in the following quarter that need can quickly shift and we need to move and adapt quickly, and that’s been felt, been non-more evident in this year, look a Covid, right, we're running a government contract and we still have this contract, but then in March when Covid hit, lockdown came the world changed overnight, and the world changed overnight for everybody, it wasn't just the commercial sector, it wasn't just the charity sector, everybody felt it, you and I felt it and everybody listening to has felt it.

So where nasen was brilliant, the rate at which and the pace at which it was able to change and we had this agility to look at our products. So one example, we do face to face training for a lot of our members, we very quickly moved from face to face and produced an offer to do online and did webinar training and that was available pretty much immediately. We did that for our members and we also were able to do that for our D of E contract, one of the outcomes on our contract was to provide training to a number of education professionals. We continue to deliver on that through online and using webinars and we had to do that very, very quickly, and we had to adapt to that very quickly. On the back of that we've created a number of new products and we've really pushed this agenda, we're doing a new product called an annual webinar pass, which enables our members to purchase a pass that gives them access to 70 webinars that we deliver on an annual basis. That's something that we didn't do last year and it's a brand new product that we've turned around and switched on, and have been selling to our to our members. The reason we sell it is because we have to generate income to cover our costs of course, we're not selling it to just make a lot of profit.

So, yes, it may well be different but it ebbs and flows to different needs, it's not slower and that's a misconception that I certainly had, particularly with nasen we are pretty fast paced and pretty agile. The second point you mentioned was the commercial side of things, and actually, I think it's fair, from what I've seen, yes, the sector may not be as commercial and may not be as switched on commercially as the commercial corporate world. I think that's understandable because the charity sector isn't driven by the p&l efficiency, as a commercial and corporate world or organisation would be, and that’s natural, that that's to be expected. I think there is certainly within nasen at least, there's been a recognition that the organisation and charity needed to become more commercial and sort of, the makeup of our Board of Trustees is much more, there is a much more commercial mindset within that board of trustees. The role that I'm in now was a new role that was created as part of the strategy for nasen, and as a finance and commercial director to look at the commercial side of nasen and start to think about the efficiencies and start to think about where should we be pitching products in terms of the cost to make sure we're recovering our cost, and historically we didn't really look at it in that level of detail.

The other thing that we're doing at nasen is we understand that the digital world and the data that sits behind that digital world is really important for the future. So we see it as a big growth area and it's become really evident as I mentioned earlier, this year on the back of Covid in needing to be able to provide an online service and deliver online, and so the use of technology is really, really important. One of the big things that we're now doing this year, which we're investing in, is the CRM and website upgrade and we're of the belief and certainly, I'm a big believer that the organisations will be successful, the ones that can differentiate themselves in the future are those that have accurate and reliable data, and use the accurate, reliable data to start to strategize and provide the right outputs for their members or customers in the commercial world. nasen is very aware of that, and that's why we're going through this big investment cycle to look at digital, look at our technologies, our technology base and get fit for purpose and try and future proof it for as long as we can. I mean, technology, you can’t future proof for too long, because it quickly becomes out of date, but what's really important is that data structure and the data architecture that sits behind it. So we're spending a lot of time trying to understand how that data should be mapped, how it should be structured, so that as technology moves and becomes more and more sophisticated, that data that underpins it remains simple, straightforward and structured so that we can continue to rely on it and it continues to be accurate, and it's a really big priority for us. Which I think is similar, it's a big priority in the commercial world as well.

So yes, to looping around back to your question, there are differences between the commercial world and the charity sector. Yes, the pace is somewhat different, it's not slower or faster though, it just ebbs and flows to different demands and different requirements. I think that's a really important thing for people to be aware of.

Lauren Freeman:
I think you've gone a long way there in reassuring people who might be looking at moving across different sectors, specifically to the charitable sector, that the finance in itself is very transferable. But from a personal perspective, have there been any challenges you faced from that element, in relation to making the move into the charitable sector. We know often that salaries can be lower, and that people expect better work life balance and don't necessarily get that, what's been your experience of those areas?

Amrit Singh:
Yeah from a salary perspective, absolutely it's not as good. I took a fairly substantial pay cut and I've got fewer perks. For example, I don't have health insurance for the first time in my career, but there are other perks, pension remains to be good. But I think it's important to understand what your personal motivations are, if you’re salary driven and you want to earn as much money as you can, then, you know, charity sector probably isn't for you at this stage of your career. I'm not at that stage, it was all about finding an organization where I could make a difference, I can see the difference I was making, not just to the organisation, but also to the members and customers, if you like, of the of the organization. I wanted to find somewhere where the values resonated with my own, and that's why I came to join nasen. Lifestyle was also a choice, I wanted the lifestyle that I thought would exist in the sector and yeah I don't work as many hours as I used to. I used to work 60/70 hour weeks, but at the end of those weeks I would spend the weekend continuing to think about work and I wasn't really present. Whereas now, yes, the hours can still be demanding and yes I do still work long weeks, but actually on a Friday night when I close my laptop, I feel like I've completed the week and I can close it and I can rest easy. Don’t get me wrong, I still might do a bit of work on the weekends here and there, but it's much less demanding.

Lauren Freeman:
I think as you talk, it's quite clear to see that you've made some amazing achievements, not only throughout your career, but how these career transitions have impacted your own personal life as well. What comes across specifically is when you talk about the move to nasen in the present day, and the passion that you have for that particular organisation, in comparison to the previous companies that you have worked for. What advice would you give to anyone who would be looking to make a similar move?

Amrit Singh:
I think it's about taking risks in your career, but calculated risks, I don't mean take a blind risk, and jump at anything. I think every now and again an opportunity presents itself that at that very moment may not be as big as you'd like it to be, but it's like a game of chess, if you can look two or three moves ahead of the one that you're making is there an opportunity for you to progress your career within an organisation. For me that's really important, particularly when you're early in your career. Then it's about finding something where the values resonate with your own, understand why does that organisation exist and what is that organisation trying to deliver and why is it trying to deliver that, and do those values align with yours and so they resonate with you and make you feel content when you think about it. But then also, I would also urge organisations as well, be willing to take the risk on people who may not necessarily come from the sector that you're in or have the experience that you're looking for, because actually having a diversity of experience really can be beneficial, it can really help your organisations grow.

Lauren Freeman:
I think you've summarised that brilliantly there because not only is it about the particular individual, but also the company as well. I guess, finally, what specifically for you have you, have you gained from making this particular move into the charitable and third sector, and what's been the best thing for you so far?

Amrit Singh:
Great question, the biggest thing that I've gained is I call it my ‘happiness equation’ and it's something that was told to me when I was in banking, actually and when I was looking at my next move, I was challenged to think about my happiness equation and it is individual to everybody. Everybody's happiness equation is their own and the way I thought about it was what's important, and it changes with time, my happiness equation now has kids in it, which it didn't have before, it wasn't part of my happiness equation. For me that thing that I really gained in moving to nasen and into the sector is, I have the ability to be present with my family and my kids, which is really positive for me and part of my happiness equation. I feel like I'm making a difference to not just nasen as an organisation, and I feel the opportunity to make a difference for nasen is there, and I see it and feel it and I work with some great people. Everybody that I work with wants to be with nasen, for the reasons that nasen is in existence, people's values are very closely aligned with nasens. When you see that, when you feel it on a daily basis, it's inspiring, it really is. It just makes you feel so content, that you're surrounded by like-minded individuals who are there for the same reasons as you and really want what’s best, not just for nasen but for those individuals that nasen is servicing. It's just a great feeling. But then also, like I mentioned at the start, personal circumstance, it's about personal circumstances as well as career development, as well as personal gratification and I think I've got a real nice balance right now. Really my happiness equation has gone up, which is why I came into it in the first place, and I feel really content, and pleased with where I am.

Lauren Freeman:
That's lovely. Well, I think, to summarise, obviously you can really tell your passion of moving to nasen and you've given a brilliant overview of what they do and how you're driving that organisation forward to make it commercial, but also how beneficial a career change within any sector can be. So it's been really nice to hear your opinion, the challenges you’ve faced, but also the positives as well, and actually see you emanate happiness in terms of working for the third sector that you are currently. I'll say thank you and you've been listening to the Talent Talks with Robert Walters podcast, with me Lauren Freeman and Amrit Singh. Thank you for listening, best of luck with the up and coming changes.

Amrit Singh:
Great. Thank you for having me.